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Hipkins’ and Luxon’s fast-paced debate fails to get pundits’ pulses racing
Analysis – Labour leader Chris Hipkins and National leader Christopher Luxon have faced off in a fast-paced but unspectacular debate with co-governance and gangs among the issues producing the liveliest exchanges.
It was the first time the two leaders had squared off against each other outside Parliament and at times the mood was tense.
Luxon, in particular, appeared frustrated when Hipkins interjected, while the Labour leader appeared to be enjoying himself a bit more.
However, with Labour behind in the polls Hipkins was unable to deliver anything telling enough to put Luxon off his stride.
He did manage some amusing lines, however, such as “We have a proven track record of reducing our emissions … it’s not just a bunch of slogans”, “building EV stations is like building petrol stations”, and when asked what was his worst quality he responded with a smile: “I need to delegate more”.
Afterwards both leaders professed themselves happy with how they performed, however, commentators on TV1 were less enthusiastic, with former MP Tau Henare saying there was no excitement and Hipkins had been “too mild”. Former Labour leader David Cunliffe believed Hipkins had allowed Luxon too much of a free run and the National party leader made the most of it. Both declared the debate a tie.
The debate was wide-ranging, covering health, housing, crime and gangs, climate change and the economy. 1News political editor Jessica Mutch-McKay kept it moving at a fast clip and co-governance, especially in health, led to some intense debate.
1News political editor Jessica Mutch-McKay talks to the leaders. Photo: TVNZ / Andrew Dalton
The leaders were both asked if Māori and Pacific people should get priority when it came to the health waitlist. Luxon said need should come first ahead of ethnicity, while Hipkins said Māori and Pacific people having priority was a positive due to their poor health outcomes when compared to the rest of the population.
Hipkins said other parties were using the issue to “race-bait”, to which Luxon interjected “rubbish”.
Luxon said he felt the definition of co-governance had been expanded since the last time National was in government and the public had not been given adequate explanations of what it entailed.
Hipkins said co-governance meant shared decision-making over natural resources which had been successful. He believed Māori and government working together benefited New Zealand.
Luxon said he supported it for Treaty of Waitangi settlements but not for national public services and repeated his party’s intention of axeing the Māori Health Authority.
“The Māori Health Authority isn’t having two separate systems,” Hipkins said.
He challenged Luxon on why he would keep Māori health providers if he did not want two systems of health. Luxon said he wanted to “turbo-charge” community organisations but it would be as part of one health system.
Hipkins said the health system was dealing with systemic issues and it would take time to build capacity to fix them.
But Luxon said every single health indicator had worsened under Labour – although Hipkins countered that by saying falling smoking rates were one example of effective action.
It was the first time the two leaders had squared off against each other outside Parliament and at times the mood was tense. Photo: TVNZ / Andrew Dalton
Crime and gangs
Both men acknowledged the country had a problem with rising crime and Luxon in particular doubled down on his party’s intention to crack down on gangs.
He said he did not feel safe in downtown Auckland and believed many New Zealanders felt the same.
Under Labour the prison population had been reduced by 30 percent – which might have been acceptable if the crime rate had gone down by the same amount – but in fact it had risen sharply, Luxon said.
On gangs he claimed: “We have nine gang members for every 10 police officers in this country.
“We’re going to make sure we ban gang patches in public places, we give police dispersal and powers to break them up from planning criminal activity, we get tough on the illegal guns that they have and we make being a gang member an aggravating factor in sentencing.”
He also promised there would be consequences for serious young offenders.
Hipkins said the escalation in gang activity was unacceptable and acknowledged that more New Zealanders were feeling unsafe, however, he advocated working with young offenders to turn their lives around which would reduce crime.
On boot camps, told that an expert said 83 percent of young people who go through them re-offend, Luxon said National would make them more effective.
“We need targeted interventions in these young people’s lives. I’m not prepared to write them off.”
When Hipkins tried to intervene and say how boot camps did not get results, Luxon hit back saying Labour had six years to get it right.
Hipkins said Labour had changed the law so police could be tougher on gang convoys, such as the recent one that closed down parts of Ōpōtiki over a tangi.
RNZ
The chief executive of the Parliamentary Service is confident there will be enough room to accommodate the increased number of MPs and their staff coming into Parliament.
On current numbers, up to 131 MPs could be sitting in the Chamber following the election, brought on by a record overhang result.
Clerk of the House of Representatives Dr David Wilson told the Spinoff that currently the debating chamber had enough chairs to seat 124 MPs – including the Speaker of the House – and work was being done to accommodate more by altering the seating arrangement.
In a statement, Parliamentary Service chief executive Rafael Gonzalez-Montero said planning for a larger Parliament had been going for “some time”.
“Now that the election results have confirmed an increase to the number of members we are looking at several options.
“We are confident we will be able to accommodate all members within the Chamber.”
VNP / Phil Smith
Gonzalez-Montero said office accommodation for members and their staff would be “stretched” for a short time, but the new Members’ Building was only a few months away from “practical completion”.
That building – located behind Parliament – was due to be ready to occupy in April next year and had capacity to accommodate around 30 backbench MPs.
“All members should be in fit-for-purpose accommodation from that point,” Gonzalez-Montero said.
Following the 2023 election, 123 MPs sat in the Chamber – a record number at the time. That decreased to 122 following the resignation of National MP Judith Collins.
Collins held the seat of Papakura and stepped down in May and Parliament voted against holding a by-election because it was too close to the election.
The election result also meant high-ranking National Party MPs like Chris Bishop, Paul Goldsmith, Nicola Willis and Gerry Brownlee – Speaker of the House and an MP for 30 years – would likely not make it back into Parliament.
Only resigning or retiring MPs were permitted to give a valedictory speech meaning none of them would get the chance to give a valedictory statement.
Asked if their would be special allowances for valedictories, Wilson said in a statement that normally only MPs were allowed to speak in the House but the House could suspend its own rules or temporarily alter them.
“It could do so to allow former members to address the House.”
Wilson said no such arrangements could be made until the next Parliament opened and members sworn in.
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